So it was then that this felt like a partnership that was going to go places?

It didn’t feel like a partnership until later. But we knew we liked working together. We had the same sensibilities, with sort of opposite methods.

How so?

He’s very meticulous about thinking about things beforehand. And he’s really good at it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone as good at it. He’s got perfect pitch. So he can always think of chords and notes, and so he can tell somebody (what he’s hearing) without going to a keyboard. He’ll just sit there and, without even looking at what they’re playing he’ll say, “You’re playing a D? Play this over it.” And it will create a cool chord. And that’s the way he thinks. He’s a composer. He’s an orchestrator. He can do it. He’s serious. I don’t want to know anything before I go into the studio. I like to go in and have people start playing and get a first impression and get the sounds and go with it. Just run with it. If I have too much time to think about stuff I’m in trouble. I like the spontaneity. I like to get a sense of the band and get that caught on record. You can’t always do it. There is work and putting your nose to the grindstone, but I want to keep as much of that [spontaneity] as I can. So we really work well together that way. Because he loves to do [his thing], and then I come in and start messing things up. So it’s really been a good match. Still is as far as I’m concerned. We’re working less and less together these days. But I think it’s just a phase. It’s a good collaboration.

So at what point did you think that collaborative identity was beginning to gel and come to fruition?

[Los Lobos’] Kiko. We’ve always sort of distanced ourselves from the music business. It’s not because we hate it. It’s a brilliant business. And business is business. It’s a bank that loans an artist money, and you make agreements with the bank. You have to do certain things if you want more money. And I don’t dislike it at all. But I’ve always distanced myself from it because I don’t want to think about it. I just want to be in the studio and hear music, you know? So it hurt us, because we didn’t really have any friends in the business. A couple, but not a lot. We usually didn’t allow [record company] people to come down to the studio and listen until it was done. We didn’t want any input. We just wanted the artists’ input and the opportunity to do what we do. And for the artist to say yes or no and let them be the final arbiter of what went on the record. They’re the boss. That brought us to the early ‘90s and we were sort of tired of The records we were doing. Kinda glossy productions. I was never good at it. I hated the sound of all those records. I could never get a really good reverb sound on the snare drum. Every time I heard it I’d wince. And I’d listen to Bob Clearmountain’s stuff and I’d be amazed. It sounded brilliant to me, the way he did “that sound.” I couldn’t do it. And I was really frustrated and so was Mitchell.

So he came in and said, “You know, we’re going to do this next record with Los Lobos and we’ve got to start being happy with what we do. So anything goes. Let’s just go back to what we did for the soundtrack for the play. The first thing we worked on together. Let’s just do what we do.” And they [Los Lobos] were ready for it. They wanted to do something different.

That was a really bold move forward in a new direction for them. Up until then they’d been, more or less, just a really good roots/Mex roadhouse-style band.

Well, the music came from them. And oddly enough, there was just a really good coincidence. The week we started I went into Guitar Center, which I always do. Whenever I start a project I go into music stores and pawn shops, you know; tool stores. See if something catches my eye. Behind the counter was a plastic board and a box sitting on the middle of it. And I could see it had all these little DIP switches on it. I said, “ What is that?” And the guy said, “I don’t know, it just came in today.” It was a SansAmp, the first one. I plugged in a guitar, I plugged in a drum machine, and maybe 10 minutes I sat with it and I said, “Okay. I want 2 of these.” And the guy went to look and he said, “We don’t have any in stock. It’s a demo.” So the guy called the company and they didn’t have any ready to ship for sale. I ended up contacting [the company] and they got me one and it just changed my life. [laughs] It really did.

And it was designed for electric guitar applications, but you were immediately using it for...?

Drums. It was drums. That’s what the drum sound is. Nothing else. It’s like, conventionally recorded drums with a little bit of Sans Amp sprinkled on here and there, particularly with the kick and snare on Kiko.

So you don’t use it in tracking, but treatment afterwards?

Oh yeah, I track with it. And if I know the band, like I do Los Lobos, I just mix it in with the signal.

You track both a pure signal and a treated signal and blend them in a submix?

Yeah and sometimes I just use the SansAmp track. But with something like Pearl Jam, where I don’t know how it’s going to go from day to day, I keep them separate.

And what was it about the sound of the SansAmp that attracted you?

Well, there’s a funny thing that happens with the sound when you bring it up on certain settings. You just play around with the settings, and there’s also just playing with the high-pass filters and the way that alters phase relationships. Even just a high-pass filter with an easy slope from 75Hz down. You just pop that in and the amount that changes things, with distortion, is incredible. So you find a setting that’s out of phase. It’s not 180 degrees, it’s just at a weird place. It would drop the kick an octave. Hit the phase button and it would just go “Ka-BLUMPH”. It would just be this “splat” but a really good splat, with a funny little crunch on top, that wasn’t a “tick”. If it’s got some distortion, I can swing with it. If it’s just that rock “tick”...uhhh. There’s just such a wonderful quality to it, I loved it. I ended up getting another 4 pedals. And I started using it on bass. I haven’t used a bass amp on any record since then.

Not at all?

Nope, just direct box through a SansAmp. And everyone I’ve used it with everyone down to Tory Levin who’s... well, he’s not a purist, but he’s so into his equipment. They’re great. I haven’t found anything they don’t sound good on, except I don’t like it on guitar.

Ironically.

Ironically, I don’t like it on electric guitar. Acoustic guitar, great on acoustic guitar.

I know you used that combination a good deal on Richard Thompson’s stuff.

Richard Thompson, Ron Sexsmith. Flutes, saxes, vocals. You name it.

So I hear what you’re saying about what happens with it technically, but in terms of the qualities it evokes, what do you think those sounds do for a listener?

Well, if you judge by sales, it turns them off. [laughs] But if you ask me, I think it makes things more interesting. I just like high contrast. I can’t stand it if something’s recorded all beautifully. If everything sounds that way it’s just like nails on a chalkboard to me. I want to hear contrast. That’s what perks my ears up. It’s like, in field recording, I like noises. It’s always better if there’s one little thing that takes you away. Like if there’s a jet engine, or a car goes by... it messes you up a little bit. So you actually hear both things better. I do anyway. Well, that happens in the music. You know, you have a really beautiful vocal and a nice guitar sound, and you put this weird bongo or drum sound to it... it sounds like it’s going through a pipe - maybe it is, I like to use a mechanical filter. I’d rather have the low-fi sound with a high-fi sound than have it all high-fi. Or all low-fi, where it’s all just unbearable to me.