Live Sound University Article Fri, November 21, 2008

The band I’m playing with has been looking at the options of making cables to save costs and/or to make sure we have the lengths we need. Is this really a cost-effective solution, or is it just more hassle than it’s worth? Also, what kind of cable would be recommended for a group that’s on the road about two gigs a week? Steren, Belden, etc. Any advice would be appreciated.

Dan

Reply Posted by Alex S. on January 12, 2002

: Kinda depends on access to the raw parts. If you can buy in serious bulk, why not build? I worked with an SR company that “built” everything we used from mic cables to 48ch trans/iso 3-way splitters. Anyone who used the gear shared the “pain” of soldering, stuffing and pinning. Made us all better system techs and kept our repair skills polished.
: After all, when you are 500 miles from the shop, what good is a tech who can find a problem but is unable to repair it? Kept us busy during the slow times, too.

FWIW

Alex S.

Reply “Slow Times” Posted by W. Mark Hellinger on January 12, 2002

Kept us busy during the slow times, too.

: FWIW

: Alex S.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There’s been a number of comments about cord building as a automatic default busy work project, which is ok, but beware of busy work. Now it’s one thing if cord building is a displacement of day time tee vee, but you have to remember this: If you are doing busy work, that work is only worth what it can be replaced for. It’s too easy to fall into these busy work ruts and slight what should really be done. Building cords is worth what? $10, $20 an hour. Landing work and filling the calander is worth what? $50, $100 an hour? I say, unless you live in Cape Yakataga AK, there are no slow times of the year. Now custom building cords so things are correct, and shows run smoothly is fine, you’re probably doing something that you can’t buy. However, beware of activities that fool yourself and the crew into believing you’re busy. Many employees will merrily work away at a project, costing the employer $20 or $30 or more an hour, and only put $5.00 an hour worth of finished work in the pay pile. And if you’re your own boss, you know it’s a lot easier to hide in the shop rather than go make some cold calls.

If everyone is sitting around playing Gameboy in the middle of the morning, it is obvious to anyone that the wheels of progress are not churning. It’s even worse, but maybe doesn’t look that way, if the crew is dithering around at some sort of busy work, especially if that busy work is consuming parts and supplies that were not “bought right”. I’m certain there is more than one sound company out there running some $100.00+ 20ft. mic cords, with some big blank spots in the calander. I’m one of them.

W. Mark Hellinger

Reply Posted by Alex S. on January 13, 2002

....remember this: If you are doing busy work, that work is only worth what it can be replaced for.
: It’s hard to replace people that “know” (because they had a hand in the construction) how the systems scale and interface on a component level.

It’s too easy to fall into these busy work ruts and slight what should really be done.
: Of course, if there’s no PM schedule/regimen. Any company that operates without one is asking for trouble. Most of the people I work with are “with it” enough to set maintenance priorities. Any engineer worth his salt ought to have this basic skill.

Building cords is worth what?
: Well for starters, it’s hourly shop pay for an engineer who might have made nothing. The company gets mic cords cheaper/of higher quality than pre-built ones and the tech gets some cash. (Bulk purchasing is a given)

Landing work and filling the calander is worth what?
: Every cent the “booking agent” is paid. That’s HIS job.

However, beware of activities that fool yourself and the crew into believing you’re busy. Many employees will merrily work away at a project, costing the employer $20 or $30 or more an hour, and only put $5.00 an hour worth of finished work in the pay pile.
: Any company that allows this sort of behavior has bigger fish to fry than the issue of “busy work” cable building. Poor management/hiring practices at the very least.

If everyone is sitting around playing Gameboy in the middle of the morning, it is obvious to anyone that the wheels of progress are not churning.
: Duh, And the “booking agent” isn’t doing his job!!!

I’m certain there is more than one sound company out there running some $100.00+ 20ft. mic cords, with some big blank spots in the calander. I’m one of them.

: W. Mark Hellinger

: Sound’s like you didn’t manage time/costing very well, probably the number one reason for failure to realise maximum profit in a service related industry. Optimising time spent/output is the basis for any successful business plan. Sorry if your hiring decisions saddled you with people who have poor work ethics. It can be a frustrating, and long darwinian process building a good crew.

: Remember this....... people can only go as far or as fast as you lead them.

Best of Days,

Alex S.

Reply Posted by W. Mark Hellinger on January 13, 2002

Alex, Mark here;

I wasn’t picking on you. Obviously you and your situation is beyond reproach. Back when I was about 28, I was pretty sure of myself as well, and had my ducks lined up. Now, it’s starting to sink in how average I really am.

An average commoner like myself makes lots of mistakes, and since many sound companies/bands/etc… involved in SR are small companies/owner operators like myself, my guess is that many share some of the same pitfalls that I experience, and deal with the same dragons I deal with every day.

It sounds like you run a fine tuned company and don’t really need advice from people like myself. I’m not in your league. See, I’m a sound guy that is running a business, not visa-versa; therefore, my business management dragons are seemingly difficult for me to get a handle on. My post was aimed towards my peers, who may find themselves making the same mistakes I’ve made. I have no advice on how to improve perfection. Please disregard my post since obviously it was not specifically meant for you.

W. Mark Hellinger

Reply Posted by Alex S. on January 13, 2002

: Mark, Alex here;

Mark,

I thought I was offering advice to someone venting about a current situation. I didn’t realise the post was in retrospect. I offered my opinion as constructive criticism for any young company/engineer learn from, not as a personal volley. I sometimes tend to be a little too direct/to the point. My apologies.
Also, somehow you’ve gotten the mistaken impression that I own/operate a sound company. Again, my apologies if I unintentionally represented myself in that fashion. I am an independent foh/mon/sys engineer/tech. I’ve played in this business on and off for 25 years (last 15 or so, full-on) and gotten burned once or twice. One thing I’ve have found a constant....... skilled, ethical people are an intangible, but definable asset in regards to a sound company’s “bottom line”. It’s in a company’s best interest to “toss a little capital” to keep them around since, as you know firsthand, they are hard to find.

Best of Days,

Alex

Reply Posted by Andrew S on January 12, 2002

I am guilty of making almost all my own cables, unless I am in a bind. I am a cheap bastard, and want good quality. I used to buy some mike cables from Peavey, I really liked the cable & they used standard neutrik connectors. Now, I think they use the solderless stuff, and I am not as excited… As far as NL4/NL8 goes, I have found that them very expensive to buy. I get a pretty decent price at my local dealer, and I paid about $40 a peice for 25 foot NL4 cables. Now considering that the NL4s can be had for about $2 a peice (not at my dealer...) and 12/4 is about $.52/foot, the cable parts can be purchased for about $15 or so. $25 to make a cable? I’d rather put that in my pocket. I’ll bet NL8’s are just as bad. Also, I can sit and watch CSI or West Wing while I build them.

Andrew

Reply Posted by AlanH on January 12, 2002

Since many of us here get our cabling direct it might skew the opinions… BUT.... I can’t see how making your own is worth the time and trouble.

Fixing a cable here and there or making something for a particular application might be OK but trying to make your own 20-30+ cables for a band seems like an awfully hard way to save any money.

Also… consider this: If one of the reasons it looks like you can save big money this way is due to bargain cabling or connector costs somewhere, make sure these are GOOD, DEPENDABLE, FLEXIBLE, cable and connectors.

You won’t save anything by making a bunch of cables that turn out to be noisy, failing often, and/or stiff monsters to wrap (and lay badly on then stage for that matter).... When you have to buy new ones to replace them anyway.

If you shop around and buy good cables they will last and last. In the long run what is an extra $100 or so for 20 pre-made cables and that peace of mind? ...And no burnt fingers, lost set screws, ends soldered on before the shell is on the cable, etc!

.02,
AlanH

http://www.Hamilton-Systems.com

Reply Posted by Jess Bruffett on January 12, 2002

If you can soder pretty good than yes is very cost effective. A friend of mine even made if own snake, it saved him about half, it would of cost him $2200 to buy a snake like the one he had and he bought the part and the cable for his snake for about $1050. Sense then I’ve been making my own patch cables, speaker cables and mic cables. I save about 40% makeing them my self than if i bought them.

Jess Bruffett
JMainia Productions

Reply Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) on January 12, 2002

If you need an unusal length, or you need it in 15 minutes and a trip to the store would be 25 minutes(and you have the materials at hand), sure. Make your own cables.

Otherwise, buy them. Unless the prices you have are outlandish; then look around. If you’ve got a good relationship with your pro audio dealer, maybe they’ll give you a discount. Cables are a high-margin item for retailers.

If you’re not in an immediate hurry, ProCo’s got some overstock that they’re moving out at excellent prices. Click on the link.

-Bob

Reply Posted by Al Limberg on January 12, 2002

It all depends on what your time is worth and your skills. In the midst of winter, you bet! Things get a bit slow, I can’t do some maintenance that requires appropriate temps, etc. then yes I’ll make cables. In the midst of the summer rush, the cash comes out and I buy them already made. It depends not only on your soldering skills but also on your shopping skills. If you’re stuck paying $3.50 each for Neutrik NC3s, then don’t waste your time. If you bother to shop and buy them at $1.60 (and similar savings on quality cable) then go for it.

Even buying can be a hassle when your local dealers sell only crap with solderless, plastic housing XLRs!!
JMHO
Al

Reply Posted by Bruce Gering on January 11, 2002

It might be worth your while to make your own speaker cables, but as far as balanced cables go, find yourself a good inexpensive source for QUALITY cables.-Bruger

Reply Posted by Mark Rednour on January 11, 2002

hI Dan,
If you have a bunch of old cruddy cables, extra xlr connectors, and good cable, sure, I would fix as many as you can. But also going out and purchasing some as well would not be out of the question for critical vocals or inst. it would be one less worry.
Mark

: The band I’m playing with has been looking at the options of making cables to save costs and/or to make sure we have the lengths we need. Is this really a cost-effective solution, or is it just more hassle than it’s worth? Also, what kind of cable would be recommended for a group that’s on the road about two gigs a week? Steren, Belden, etc. Any advice would be appreciated.

: Dan

Reply Posted by Rich Zei on January 11, 2002

I guess it all depends on a couple of factors, like your skill with a soldering iron, patience and the like. I have always made custom cables for the back of racks and such. I found that it helps to cut down the amount of CABLE-ETTI (new term!!) and all in all makes things easier to patch in/pack up. As for mic lines and such, I just buy ‘em.

Rich

Reply “ETTI” Posted by Neal Smith on January 11, 2002

......I have always made custom cables for the back of racks and such. I found that it helps to cut down the amount of CABLE-ETTI (new term!!)

ok Rich?

Reply Posted by Mick Wiant on January 11, 2002

as in SPAGHetti CABLE etti....

Scary....I got it
Must be because I’m married to an Italian

Mick “Eating garlic chocolate chip cookies” Wiant

Reply Posted by Rich Zei on January 12, 2002

So am I, i figgerd a coupla us was out dere.

Rich

: as in SPAGHetti CABLE etti....

: Scary....I got it
: Must be because I’m married to an Italian

: Mick “Eating garlic chocolate chip cookies” Wiant

Reply Posted by matt ruggeri on January 12, 2002

Scary, I got it too! I am Italian! I refer to it as ‘Pasta Cableviera’.
One band I work for serves that dish every show! They bring their own light show, and the cabling looks like Black Spaghetti!
I bring a nice neat Multi-Pinned PA, and neat ‘Pasta Free’ Cabling. I hate Cable-Etti, It tastes and looks funny.
Besides it’s an insult to good pasta.

Reply Posted by Mikael Holm on January 11, 2002

~33ft (the most usual length here) quality cable is worth 8-9 EUR, XLR-male and XLR-female go for 6 EUR. That’s 14-15 EUR while one can get ready made cable with same parts for 16 EUR. Not really worth it.

Miffe