Reply posted by Tim Krutz on January 05, 2002

Now I already know that people may discount this because of the brand....but the Rane MP44 has this feature built in. you set the max gain of the mixer on the back panel, where if mounted in a rack, the DJ can't get to it.

The Standard DJ mixer at raves, the pioneer DJM-600 also has a similar feature, but I can't say that I am sure it accomplishes the same task. It is a little blue "screwdriver" knob on the back of the unit. Unfortunately, the Pioneer has fairly poor sound quality.


Reply posted by Robbie Nelson on January 04, 2002

I am trying to go down that specialized path of just doing sound for raves because I figure that making any money in live sound in Atlanta is quite difficult. It's funny because I am already getting a reputation out of state as a small but powerful rave sound guy. With talking to the promoters of raves and the DJ's at them, they pretty much of nothing good to say about conventional sound companies. They really do want a company that doesn't own mics and stands and understands where they are coming from as they are totally different from a rock and roll band. Keep in mind this is what I have experienced in my dealings with ravers, DJ's and promoters.


Reply posted by joe langholt on January 04, 2002

There is a company called Big Stack out of, I think, Atlanta, that do raves with their Turbo rigs, but as well does club installs and such. Good guys, and good company. Don’t know their website off hand though.


Reply posted by michael on January 04, 2002

There are likely one or two sound providers in your area who specialise in this type of production. You just need to locate them. One method is to go to events and see who is providing the sound, especially events that come off well and have the "good sound".

I suggest you "map" your local resources and this might take you a few months of meeting people, collecting telephone numbers and getting a feel for your regional groundwork or network. You might want to keep a notebook.

You might do a "search" here on some of these topics. There is a search function for previous archived posts on this site. Depending on how sophisticated the local kids are, some raves have local communication websites and the events are discussed before and after.

Good luck.


Reply posted by Weogo on January 04, 2002

Hi Robbie,

No microphones?
At raves are there ANY live inputs?

Thanks and good health, Weogo


Reply posted by michael on January 04, 2002
(In reply to post by Weogo on January 04, 2002)

Raves are a part of the PA market place. You have to use a pile of speaks/amps/drive processing and it seems to me a subcategory of "live" sound, and certainly a market category of live event sound. There's a lot of other categories too: theater sound, public speaking, pop music performance.

I've worked a rave before where one of the "acts" was a couple of persons with a pile of samplers and keyboards and they built the presentation, every bit of it was constructed live. This is one area of "rave" artists, wheres some others just spin records. I don't know
where they get the records. It appears some of them are made from their compositions and are pressed up in small number. I really don't know.

It's certainly a specialty that can ruin a rock n roll PA, and I think it productive to understand an approach of how to do (or not do) these events. A pile of subs is a good start, but basically, with an event budget, there is a potential to do "complex" zone systems, use a pile of gear and get paid decently to do it.


Reply posted by W. Mark Hellinger on January 04, 2002

Michael;

I completely agree. Admittedly some of the "raves" I've worked were little more than glorified sock hops; however, regardless of how someone wants to define a rave, to my mind it is certainly a suitable topic for discussion on the LAB. I have yet to work a "rave" that didn't involve speakers, amps, mixers, one or more mics, monitors, etc... Whether someone is playing a turntable as opposed to some sort of "real instrument", the challenges of doing a rave and doing it right are just as real as the challenges of doing other more traditional SR work.

To me it's certainly a legitimate topic worthy of this forum. Of course "doing it right" is subjective, and as of yet relatively undefined; but, at a basic level involves having your act together enough to give the customer what they want.

Also, from my perspective, I see the live aspects of raves (i.e. basically bands backing up the deejay) as an emerging trend. Any sound company that doesn't view rave work as real, serious, or ligitimate SR work in my mind is either elitist or stuck in a comfortable rut, and a rut is just a grave with the ends kicked out.

W. Mark Hellinger


Reply posted by Tim Krutz on January 04, 2002

Let me make a note that the decent to very good DJ's are truly doing a lot more than just "playing records of unknown origin" They are constantly manipulating the EQ's, volume faders, record speed, effects, etc, playng 2 to 3 records at once.....while keeping a good flow of tracks and a solid set structure. Good set structure builds up the energy level on the dancefloor to a peak, not so much unlike a good set planned out by a band, but without the dead air between songs. A less common 'act' at a rave is a scratch dj, which effectively uses the turntables and their records as an instrument. Arranging bits and peices of sound from a record to form another song. Essentially a really difficult to play sampler.

In most cases, a good sound technician is neccesary for good sound. Some DJ's get really involved in their set, and lose focus on their 'levels'. In steps the sound man to adjust the levels of the sound system. Think of it as dynamics....akin to a vocalist going from a whisper to a howl. It might not be as involved as watching 40+ channels on a live band in that aspect, but good sound system fundamentals make the show better, just like they would for any band or other live performance. I find it quite interesting that 'rave' DJs don't earn much respect on this board, but I am quite sure it is from lack of knowledge on the subject.

Sure there are DJs who are not friendly to work with, and frankly don't know what they are doing, but hey, I am sure there are plenty of other live performers in a similar situation...in fact I have read about quite a few of them on this board.

I would liken most of the systems I have seen used in these events to "B" systems for the larger (~1000-2000 in attendance) and "C" systems for the smaller events. The only exeption that I have seen is an outdoor festival in detroit, that had an X-array system on the main stage, 24 boxes flown, 8 double space subs, and 3 (what I assume to be delay) stacks with 2 MTL-2 and 2 delta boxes on each. Of course it was a mixture of live, jazz/funk oriented bands, and DJs, but the DJ's stole the show (20,000+ people at the main stage.)

If you are looking into getting into this line of work, the key is to either have a lot of headroom, so you don't have to worry about pushing your system, or watching your levels carefully (accompanied by a lot of compression along with limiting, if you don't want to be as involved). Also, good monitors are quite important. Obviously you don't need to have someone running a monitor mix, but good sound for the DJ helps out tremendously in their mixing. Most of the big time DJs have this detailed in their riders (yes riders!!)

I guess the point is that 'rave' DJs are typically not stupid punk kids with a box of records. Kind of funny, because you could easily say that rock n' roll 'musicians' are punk kids with guitars or drums. They put a lot of dedication and hard work into what they do. Or they have connections. But what is new in the music business.

If you can handle the music, the money is often pretty decent, compared to the amount of setup work involved (if you compare it to settin up for a typical concert on the same scale)

Tim Krut


Reply posted by Barry Bozeman on January 19, 2002

Tim,

As one of the 'old timers' on this board I would like to tell you how insightful and interesting I found this description of RAVE sound to be. Beginning in 94 or 95 -memory gets a bit fuzzy at 55- I got involved in the Chicago club scene at KaBoom and Crobar where DJ driven entertainment was supplemented by live acts. From that we began to provide SR for the local RAVE promotors in a number of legit and underground venues around the city. The shows spanned the gamut from very live performances by 'the ORB' and others with demand for multi-channel mixing to pretty straight forward DJ record spinning. I got to know a number of the "DJ's" personally some of whom have become well known on the International Rave scene. They rehearsed and worked everybit as hard as any musician I have known and composed and compiled their own tracks and disks. They were by in large, intelligent, dedicated, and likeable musicians who used drum
machines and synthesizers and computers as their instruments. We supplied the Chicago standard Harry Witz MT boxes pre EV and EV supplemented by ServoDrive BassTech 7's below 60Hz.

Anyone who generalizes about the subject of RAVE sound as non-live sound is just simply full of crap, too hung up on their own 'superior' BS, and willing to dismiss the experience of others as inferior or insignificant. There is a great old saw about the need to put others down to build oneself up but those too illiterate to have known it are probably beyond being positively effected by it. They are afflicted by the terrible debilitating disease of Tunnel Vision, in the early stages of brain atrophy (which begins when one becomes so full of oneself that the ego cuts off the bloodflow to the brain), or they probably should have become cops instead of sound artists.

In other words they already "know everything" and no one is going to tell them any different. Bravo and kudos to you for standing firm in your convictions on this matter in the face of these personal assaults.

One thing I would take issue with is the below 40Hz thing. If a system is capable of 20 or 25Hz which MOST are not you would find quickly the benefit of such a capability particularly with these predominantly synthesized sounds that do have significant below 40Hz components. The problem comes because most "pro" 18 inch drivers are delivering diminishing returns below 42Hz because of excursion limitations. By offering the ability to deliver the OCTAVE of information from 20 to 40Hz you will double the apparent output of your system while protecting the hearing of your audience. The Rave scene is one of the places where that Octave is readily available. If you care to know more about the subject I humbly suggest that you read the article archived at LIVESOUND International, look to the right for Education down to Audio Insiders and select the article "Two Things You Can't Get Too Much Of...Bass and Cash."

Any questions feel free to contact me at the address above.

Again- I found your comments to be thoughful, balanced, thorough and fair throughout this thread in the face of considerable hostility from those who should know better.

I know this comes late in the life of this particular thread but what can you do eh?

Barry Bozeman