Reply posted by nick kourtides on June 26, 2000

Sometimes it makes a lot of sense... When I run large musicals with 50 or 60 inputs that all move what seems like all the time, the only way I can judge relative balance is to achieve a "nominal" mix on the console with faders at unity. I know what that mix sounds like, and can make individual moves to wireless or orchestra inputs, but restore to "nominal" pretty quickly (and keep my eyes and ears on the stage).

If you set things up so that the unity mix works for, say, loud orchestra and ensemble singing, you can get where you need to go in a hurry - just get the faders up to zero, it sounds pretty good, then tweak the faders in the +/- 5db region where they have the most resolution.

I also use mute scenes, vca's and subgroups to make global changes, but again, leave unity as my nominal, and restore the console to this nominal setting between scenes as I set up for the next song, book scene, etc..

While not technically the quietest way to run a console, when you have a lot of things to do, it can be a sanity saver. I'd never (without automation) be able to mix 20+ channels of lavs, plus another 20 in the pit, and 'verbs and playback if every fader had to get to a different level to achieve a relative balance that I may need to get to 20 times each night.

That being said, because I work so often this way, I HATE consoles that don't give you any real gain at the subgroups or aux's. Most Soundcrafts have 0db nominal positions at the top of the group fader and at "10" on the aux's. This is maddening. A REAL console should give you the option of adding gain at multiple stages because sometimes you need to.

Most people don't do it, but sometimes you need to do 10db moves on the main outs or matrix sends or subs or aux masters, etc. etc. etc... If the board can't handle that quietly and with decent headroom, then I don't want to use it.

whew...
Nick Kourtides


Reply posted by Mike Allen on June 27, 2000

- “I usually avoid mixing like this because the majority of the time i do a monitor mix off of FOH .. aux channel.....and using the trim knob messes w/ the levels to aux sends too...not just mains (at least on the consoles i am familiar with )”

Well stated, Chris! I was wondering when some body was going to make that point! 95 percent of the time, I'm using the Auxes for monitors myself. I have seen guys mix using the gain knob "method", and can attest they had IMMENSE trouble keeping the monitors stable, as well as FOH. While keeping preamps "hot" enough is important, you still can't let the rest of the mix keel over. I prefer to set things AS A COMPROMISE in accomplishing the OVERALL RESULT.
Regards,
Mike


Reply posted by D. Parker on June 26, 2000

IMO that's like the guys who push all the faders on the EQ all the way up and then cut a few. Monkey see monkey do. The cleanest amps in the board are the mike pre's, and if you get all your boost from the faders and nothing from the mic pre's your not getting the cleanest sound you can get. Also, if your gain is not set correctly, your auxes wont function properly and you inserts wont work at all. If the gain is set low you will really have to crank the threshold on your compressors because the gain structure is wacko.

David


Reply posted by Sam on June 26, 2000

Randy,

I take the position that the guy you were working with has it HALF right. In my experience, mixing on the preamps is a GREAT idea and results in much better sounds... however I think that subgroups/mixes and group control are also a big part of the picture. Also I do not think starting with the main outs at 0 makes much sense.

I really like the consoles where the preamp knob is directly above the fader! Unfortunatly most manufactorers feel that the preamp should be at the top of the strip (to seem "in order" in terms of gain structure).

Hopefully Don P. will comment about this.

Sam "I tune'm not mix'm" Berkow


Reply posted by Jeremy Johnston on June 26, 2000

I attended a Syn-Aud-Con Live Sound Workshop a couple years back and a seasoned audio professional, who works for a very large audio company and with very large acts, presented that method of mixing. I questioned it myself, but it DOES have merit. One assumption that was made which I feel might be in error for a large percentage of us, is that the console is very high quality and the preamps are very clean and have a lot of gain.

The merit in this method, as I see it, is that a beginning engineer has a baseline to go to when they are mixing. If they start out with a good mix and make only small adjustments with the faders, then when their adjustments don't work to their satisfaction they can go back to "0" and be back to a good mix.

Since I have always been taught to get as much good clean signal into the board as possible with the gain knob and then mix with the faders, then this other method seems a little foreign, but very workable.