Reply posted by John T. Cotton on June 27, 2000

Personally it makes me nuts. I tend to approach everything from a traditional engineering standpoint, I use my input trim to match the source to the console, maximizing s/n and headroom as best I can. I don't care if I have to pull a fader down near the bottom, if that's where it needs to be, so be it.

That said, I've had lot's of visiting engineers mix with their faders zeroed. For some of them with outstanding results. As long as I can't hear ungodly amounts of console noise or distortion I usually leave them alone to do their thing.

I also read Nick's post below, and I've seen some of the shows he has to put together, sometimes you have to make compromises. In the end I guess if it works for you then that's fine. It doesn't make it absolutely right but it's not exactly a black and white world we live in.

It's a strange mix of art and science we work with. If the artist, audience and the guy writing your check all walk away happy it's a good day.

JTC


Reply posted by Alan Wheeler on June 27, 2000

OK, I'm going to step into this now. I have to agree with John. Yes you can achieve good sound either way just as you can have bad sound either way. However, from a design point of the mixer, the faders are the controls designed for constant moving.

If we were supposed to mix with the gain control thensome designers need to swap the fader for the rotary pot or we need to turn the board around and start mixing upside down. Technically speaking, your gain structure set up means best S/N ratio from input through buss amp stages, to output and on through any equipment to amps.

When you reach a certain peak level on the input, it should be the same through out the entire chain. Where the faders end up on the Board will represent how you place each instrument/vocal in the mix to how YOU feel it should sound.

Wheels

Reply posted by Dave on June 27, 2000
(In reply to post by Andy Peters on June 26, 2000)

Hey, guys who mix monitors for a living? Do YOU want to throw away the faders on your desks? I didn't think so.

I'll refuse a console without full throw faders on the inputs. The bulk of the really good (ie, high paying) monitor gigs require mixing for the artist, sometimes just like FOH. Even more so with ear mons.

I hear ya, though. A line of faders all at the same point is hardly a good visual indicator.

Dave


Reply posted by Tony W Mah on June 26, 2000

Randy,
Lets assume the following...
High quality gear, adequate SPL from rig
The gain structure is setup properly from mixer to amp, meaning all the outputs clip at the same time.
Separate monitor board
Foh mixer has good dexterity to be able to rotate small knobs

1. set all faders at zero
2. play some pink noise through a channel and measure the level with a spl meter at foh.
3. turn up the trim until the spl meter reads 95db
4. read the Master meter at the board
5. if say the meters read -10db, pad ALL the crossover outputs with a 10dB.

In this case the FOH mixer knows that when the meters read around 0db, the house mix will average 95dB with 101dB peaks. The FOH guy also has 15 to 20dB of headroom on all his inputs. If the gain structure is setup this well, which is perfect. It makes no difference. Mixing by faders, or by the trim will give the lowest noise and distortion with reasonable headroom. This is how I setup my mixes. Another advantage is that the meters actually tell me how loud the mix is.

Tony Mah


Reply posted by greg on June 28, 2000
(In reply to post by michael model 2 on June 27, 2000)

You ignored my question the first time around. Then you bring forth the real issue, that you don't understand what S/N has to do with input trim. It has everything to do with input trim.

On the hiss issue, I don't care if your system, when all powered up and idling, is doing -450dB, that's not the point. Plug in a few mics at the stage. Connect those particular snake channels to board of your choice. Say bass DI, therefore there is no direct sound from stage. PFL. Adjust input trim as necessary to place average meter peaks around 0dB. Bring level of channel up in mix to a pleasant level (say, 105dB, ok, it's a Modulus, make it 108dB).

Now, drop your input gain/trim/pot back about a 1/4 turn. Adjust master and channel faders to return to the 108dB level. If you can even get the SPL back to that point, you find that not only does the tone sound duller than with the input at 0dB, you can now hear more hiss than you could before. This is an electrical phenomenon. You will probably hear more hiss with a SR24*4 than you will with an XL4, but regardless, you are now amplifying more noise than you were before relative to usable, desirable input signal.

This noise is typically called hiss, as that is what it typically sounds like. This noise was previously masked by the presence of more signal in the channel. The hiss is generated internally by the electronics of the console, the instrument, the cabling, the amps, cosmic rays (I shit you not), and anything else that causes electrons to move in Brownian ways.

There is little you can do about it other than getting the most SIGNAL rather than NOISE into your mix path. You should know this. It disturbs me that you don't, and not only do not, but hold forth in the face of many compelling reasons contrary.

I feel great setting up my mix on any desk presented to me, whether it be an old-old 24-ch Hill, SRC1600, Yamaha 2404, Mackie, et al, or a 48-input PM4K, XL4, Vx52, Series 5, Paragon, et al. The mechanics are the same. You cannot faithfully amplify what is not there.

Yes, there are exceptions. Do I run the hat up to unity? Typically I do not. Most everything else, however, goes up to unity. The amazing thing is, quite often (well, OK, given an act that in fact knows what they are doing) you will find my mix hovering around unity on the faders anyway, give or take 3-5dB either way. This is because I have, in fact, set my mix up correctly.

Given also a properly tuned system that provides a good flat-response starting point, I also find myself using little channel EQ. Therefore, my full 22-input mix is up and sounding tits while you're still futzing with the drum channels. Because I have set my mix up correctly. And that, IMO, is quite real.