(Please note: In addition to checking out this thread, and possibly searching for others in the LAB archives, if you go to our PSW Study Hall - you can download “Gain Structure Basics,” a pdf. file by Chuck McGregor. It includes easy to follow, real world directions to help you in setting your gain structure.)

(Also, this was a truly colossal thread, and therefore some judicious editing took place … some detours were lopped off for the sake of focus. – C.K.)

Post by Randy Scott on June 26, 2000

We did a show yesterday and the soundman worked like this.
NO SUB MIXES...left & right faders up to "0" and then channel fader to "0" and then use the trim knob (with or without pad engaged)to get to the level needed. All channel faders mostly around "0" and use the trim knob to adjust any major levels...nowhere near "channel clip level".All channels routed to only left/right...nothing to a sub mix for drums or vocals.

It did sound good but is this the way to do it?


Reply posted by Bill Green on June 27, 2000

I mix the old fashioned way. I use the faders. I use sub groups. I set gain structure similar to the study hall article. I have had very good results. Mixing the way I do makes good sence from an engineering standpoint. We design mixers to be used that way that I have discribed. You can set them up and use them in any manner that you wish to. Your actual milage will very.


Reply posted by Josh Millward on June 29, 2000

Thank you Bill. This is the same thing I do. When I'm running monitors from FOH, like I generally do, there is no WAY I'd want to be futzing around with the gains quite that much! I want to adjust what I'm hearing in MY mix, not what is on stage (which is what I'd do if I were dicking with the trims) I think it just makes good sense to use the faders and get as much signal as you can with the trim WITHIN REASON.

Now, when I say "WITHIN REASON" that is exactly what I mean. When you have your CD player or high hat dumping tons of signal down the line, use your tools (ears & eyes) to realize that "Hey, if I turn down the gain/trim/sensitivity/whateverwearegoingtocallittoday I can get more play on the fader" then that is what you do. Let's face it, it is just plain stupid to have the desk setup so that when you move the fader a millimeter the level changes drastically, just pad it down a touch so you can use that fader. After all, that is what the fader is there for, to be used.

Josh (I can't believe this thread, and I really can't believe that I contributed) Millward


Reply posted by Mike Kivett on June 27, 2000

What about digital mixers? Say you're mixing a small show on an 01V or a big digital desk? Are you going to run your gains low and sacrifice bit-resolution of your signal? The faders don't actually have signal passing thru them, does this alleviate taper problems?
Just curious...

Mike


Reply posted by Tony Johns on June 27, 2000

OK, I'm a little flustered at the responses here. Isn't this about whether or not it sounds good? To me that's the first and most important thing. If it works for you Great! If it doesn't, don't do it! But to say it's wrong because "science" says it's wrong, you doing yourself and the music an injustice.

Tony Johns


Reply posted by Christopher Whitt on June 27, 2000

I think I (and most "set the trim for correct gain structure and mix with the faders" advocates) would agree with you.

It seems to me that using the "mix-with-the-trims" technique makes it difficult to handle aux outputs for a variety of uses. Also, I like my faders to show me how much (or little) the PA is doing for each input, rather than how much above or below the baseline mix a particular channel is.

So, bottom line, setting up the trims the engineering way avoids some potential problems, and allows me to then set up the mix using just the faders, and I like it that way. Some others prefer to set the faders at unity and set the trims after that, and work around the potential problems. As long as they are happy and can make a good mix, well fine.

Just different folks find different things work better - I think I still haven't lost sight of the big picture in choosing one position over the other, and understanding the advantages.

Christopher

PS When I train new techs, I don't teach them the mix by the trims method... too many ways for newbies to get bad habits. Once they're not newbies anymore, they don't seem to need to change...