Posted by Allen Cothran on September 26, 2002

I recently began running FOH at my church and have been running sound and learning a lot for roughly 3 years. We have a drummer/sound man (scary thought huh) who once played and ran sound (not at the same time) for some pretty big regional acts in the 80's. He saw me using headphones during rehearsal last weekend and asked me what I was doing. I said that I was "soloing" various channels and tweaking. He told that I was crazy and the "nobody in the real world ever uses headphones". I would say that it's more like "everybody in the real world uses headphones" but I thought I would post this and see what results I get. Maybe I am crazy.

Also, the first time I ran sound, the video guy comes out of his booth and asks me "what just happened?" Come to find out, the audio for the video feed to the classrooms is in the control room out (Mackie 8-buss so we have no matrix outs) which is a board mix until the solo/PFL is engaged. I can't believe that in 6 years of this system being installed, I'm the first FOH guy to ever solo an input. Kind of explains the headphone thing......Go figure!!!!!

Allen Cothran


Reply posted by AZ on September 30, 2002

I have found that in a live context you can hear reverbs and delays if you PFL them on the returns before you hear them in the speakers. Just a little extra security.

AZ


Reply posted by andy craig on September 28, 2002

I regularly do a show with tight vocal delay effects. I have to do these with headphones on because of the time delay at FoH.

andy.


Reply posted by Mike Tulley on September 27, 2002

I have rarely met a band BE (Board Engineer, or mixer) who didn't travel with a pair of headphones and a vocal mic in his personal kit. They don't ask to borrow mine, they just plug in their own.

Mike T.


Reply posted by Jesse Bastos on September 27, 2002

Lots of comments about the phones, and I agree with most of them...headphones are a useful tool..... NOW... about feeding video from the Control room output - if I'm not mistaken , the Mackie 8 bus has a "mix B" section ... although it may not be as convenient as a matrix, you can set up a separate mix (using your headphones when the drummer's not looking!) which may be better as a video feed .

Sometimes the mix in the room, (especially in smaller venues) uses a lot of the sound from the stage, so your main mix out of the desk doesn't really reflect what it really sounds like in the room. A spare Aux send can be used as well. Also, check out your crossover... some models (like the Old American Speaker Company crossovers) also have a full range output.

Cheers.... JB


Reply posted by Bruce Gering on September 26, 2002

Among other things, I use me headphones in concert with an RTA to ring out monitors from FOH. Takes me about 30secs to ring, and another minute or 2 to fine tune through the "Testing!, Checking!" routine. As others have said, I use them to find the offending channel when things are not quite right on stage. And here's a use no one's covered: I use them instead of earplugs when things get a bit loud and the band's pretty well tuned in. Much more comfortable on the ears than plugs, and you can just turn them down all the way if you wish.

-Bruger


Reply posted by Al on September 26, 2002

Beyer, Sennheiser, etc., never have any problems with sales of (quite pricey) monitor headphones for live use. Also EVERY SINGLE FOH desk I have ever seen has, guess what, a headphone socket. Perhaps your drummer thinks these are put on the desk for 'decoration' by some wacky designer?

I use headphones during soundcheck, whilst playing b/g music, during the show for all sorts of things including:

Which singer is in/out of tune?
Is that acoustic guitar in tune?
Which keyboard is using that ridiculous sound?
How is the mix compared to stage & audience noise + Mix?
What’s the record/video mix sounding like?

Most invaluable is that quick PFL through all channels to find the source of major buzzes (much better than a suggestion I had of “Turn each channel down on this foldback so I can see whats buzzing,”) & to check that all the mics are at least working.

Al


Reply posted by Kevin Maxwell on September 26, 2002

One of the things I find the headphones handy for is determining which of the three or more singers is the flattest or sharpest. Actually, unless you really know what each persons voice sounds like, the headphones come in handy to recognize each voice and then, without the headphones, is it in the mix properly.

There have also been times with multiple guitars soloing/PFL the inputs helps determine which one is playing what part and how do they sit in the live mix. So identifying what is what. Sometimes it might be more appropriate to call it combat sound than live sound.


Reply posted by Mitch Grant on September 26, 2002

Several good examples of how and why you use headphones have already been given. I'll give you one more example.

Last week, as a BE, I did a very posh wedding in Vail, Colorado. The client was extremely concerned about "the look" in the reception area. They paid BIG $ to the sound company, and asked to keep the whole music/entertainment package ON THE STAGE. So, I ended up mixing from the back of the stage BEHIND the band. I had to walk THROUGH the band to get to where I could hear the FOH stacks.

Consequently, I made some trips out front during sound check to establish some reference levels, and then pretty much mixed the whole 3 hour set from behind the band wearing my trusty Sony headphones. I made a couple of trips out front during the show at times when the action on stage was "somewhere else" but that was it. I also used the sound company's lead audio guy to give me a few hand signals at the start of the show.

Sometimes you just have to do things exactly the way the client wants and make the best of it. It was far from ideal in my mind, but at the end of the night.... the client was happy and we all got paid.

Adapt. Improvise. Overcome.

And use headphones if you have to!

Mitch


Reply posted by Clarke on September 26, 2002

Headphones IMHO, are one of those indispensable tools that should be in every soundguy's bag o' tricks. I don't go anywhere without mine. Even if I don't use them, they're there, and usually plugged in, just in case. Especially working in an evnironment like a church or theater, where you are switching the focus of the mix from band/orchestra, to body/lav mic(s), cueing up playback, etc. Invaluable for troubleshooting and a quick confirmation of the source signal. Don't leave home without 'em!

As far as your video feed, another option on the 8*Buss would be to use the Mix B outputs instead of the CR out. This would let you solo the video feed as well in the Ctrl Rm (headphones) and hear what's going out there. The one thing I really hate about the 8 buss is the solo function is AFL only, unless you open up the console and do a mod to the circuit board. PITA for live gigs.

Cheers,
Clarke


Reply posted by Bink on September 26, 2002

I haven't actually met anyone who can confirm, but I've heard that one of the larger 80's sound companies like maybe Maryland Sound came up with this rule at concerts as a timely fight against their road engineers burying themselves in the cans at a show and missing the nuances of the speaker stacks. One concert album I have from that period (where did I put it?) even states in the liner notes “no headphones were used” as if that would make the reader think it was higher quality.

So your drummer guy is a product of his training or the people he met. Of course we all use headphones to listen for specific things.

Using the control room out for a remote feed sucks as you've just found out. Take your Mackie main outs and split them / DA them. Save the control room outs for Smaart or a delayed pair of meter bridge monitors.

-Bink


Reply posted by Chip on September 26, 2002

I've been mixing professionaly for close to two decades. I've used headphones pretty much everyday. Last time I looked, I was in the real world. I'm not certain what planet your buddy's from. But, everyone here uses them.

By the way, I'd be pissed if the guy driving the train was listening to music instead of paying attention to the track.

People with degrees are engineers.
People who drive trains are engineers.
People who run sound consoles are mixers.

As long as I've been doing it, and as much as I'd like to be able to have a degree in it, that's just not the way it is. We're not engineers.

Chip


Reply posted by Jeff Tucker on September 26, 2002

If a band guy ever showed up at the venue without his cans, he would ask to borrow mine. Every time. Headphones (to me anyway) are a VERY important tool to a live sound guy.


Reply posted by J Ranger on September 26, 2002

You will find a set of K-240DF's or 280's where I mix, they not only are used for setup and trouble shooting, they can also be used (with close backed phones) to check a wet signal before running the effect out of cue, on a cue sheet so to speak.

Bear in mind that it is hard to hear, even with a closed back, but in a pinch, they have saved a delay setting or a sample loop to layer with .

I don't recommend them for everyone, but in a large setting, with effects cued in, sometimes the only way to find out if its the right sample in a small sample unit, is to listen to said sample from the unit without running it through mains.

J Ranger