Posted by michael on April 02, 2002

There is no question that some of the newer technologies provide a great leap in power transfer, accuracy, impression and dynamic response.


Posted by Tom Young on April 02, 2002

"There is no question that some of the newer technologies provide a great leap in power transfer, accuracy, impression and dynamic response."

None whatsoever. I seldom go down this road, but when I think of all the great bands and events that I did 25 years ago and how they would have sounded with today's technologies (not to mention my enhanced skills).... whew !

In most ways it's a good thing they were in real time.

ty


Posted by michael on April 02, 2002

That's the difference in marketing and engineering.


Posted by Jim McKeveny on April 02, 2002

No two things in the history of mankind have been more quantized, scientized, and analyzed more than the weather and the stock market. How reliable would you regard their forecasts (other than on a general trend level)? You are not being cynical,Tom, you are being wise.

Regards,

Jim McKeveny


Posted by Nathan on April 01, 2002

well, a lot of the process behind it comes down to a good mic and mic placement..well, as well as great speakers/amps that will have tons more headroom for everything else once you get the kick slamming...b/c i've mixed on shows that they INSISTED that i mic the kick in a room so small that you didn't need it anyway..and the system just would not take the kickdrum and amplify it enough....just not enough power....

but back to mic placement...in theory, most kick drums are tuned to have the correct wave length for a great punch right at the resonant head of the drum...so many people stick the mic inside the drum and close to the batter head, but the problem is you dont get a full and complete wave length at the mic...so i say place the mic right at the hole in the head (if there is one) pointing off axis of the beater...also, the middle of the drum is most always a dead spot, so always place the mic off axis for maximum punch...but there's not TOO much physics behind it...

b/c in the real world, from night to night, you deal with kicks that ROCK and kicks that SUCK...so you just gotta move that mic around till it sounds good, or sometimes eq the hell out of it..and sometimes compress, sometimes gate to get out all the weirdness...it just depends on the kick....but if you start with a good placement then if every other varible in the system is up to par, then everything will be rocking....I'm not that big of a fan of dynamics processing on drums...see, drums aren't too dynamic....the DRUMMER can be dynamic, but the drum itself isn't too dynamic...most of the time it's on or off...for toms especially..so i dont usually gate/compress toms or a kick..

b/c kicks are the same way...on or off; there or not......but you always have to start with a good drum FIRST...you cant expect to mic a crappy set and make it sound good...you're just responsible for reinforcing what is already there...ok, sorry for the whole disertation/rant...but i hope you picked up atleast ONE thing that helps you out of this essay...

Best Regards,
Nathan Hamler.


Posted by Mikael Holm on April 03, 2002

- “in theory, most kick drums are tuned to have the correct wave length for a great punch right at the resonant head of the drum...so many people stick the mic inside the drum and close to the batter head, but the problem is you dont get a full and complete wave length at the mic...so i say place the mic right at the hole in the head” -

What the f*ck are you talking about? Chest slamming lows are in the 60-80Hz area which is approximately 18-13ft in the wavelength department. The reason you get more lowend out of the kick drum near the hole is because the speed and amount of airflow is largest there.

Most of the attack and click is right there next to beater.

Miffe


Posted by michael on April 02, 2002

This is a mistake.

Kick is about system implementation. Imagine your system sitting with a L,R XLR ready for you to plug in your console. Ability of a PA system to provide "Kick" and effeciently, accurately and dynamically "move air" is a function of system design/format/implementation and has absolutely nothing to do with quality of program material. To achieve "power transfer" in PA is an issue of dsp/amplifier/speaker technology.

To talk about mic choice/placement is like thinking the wrap on a steering wheel affects the speed of an automobile, the torque, the motor, the function of the transmission.

That's the truth, Ruth.


Posted by Nathan on April 02, 2002

Michael: Imagine your system sitting with a L,R XLR ready for you to plug in your console.

Nathan: what that had to do with anything i have no idea...?????

Michael: To talk about mic choice/placement is like thinking the wrap on a steering wheel affects the speed of an automobile, the torque, the motor, the function of the transmission.

Nathan: For you to say that mic choice/placement has nothing to do with a good kick sound just shows your ignorance..any good engineer knows that good sound ALWAYS starts at the source...and i can promise you that a sennheiser e602 sounds much better than an SM81 on any kick, and i can assure you that an e602 placed right at the hole in the resonant head, off axis with the beater will sound much better than the same mic placed 2 inches from the batter head, on axis with the beater....so right there in one paragraph i have explained to you why mic choice/placement plays such a HUGE role in good sound.

Now, i maybe have been wrong to explain kick mic placement when he really wanted to know about the physics of a system haveing to do with everything after the console...so my deepest apologies in that respect...

Regards,
nathan hamler.

and by the way, i guarantee that i well placed mic will in turn allow/cause the speakers to move MUCH more air than a not well placed mic...


Posted by michael on April 06, 2002

Nathan: For you to say that mic choice/placement has nothing to do with a good kick sound just shows your ignorance..any good engineer knows that good sound ALWAYS starts at the source...

michael: Don't use qualifiers like "always" with me. I provide PA for three hundred acts a year? Do I care what they plug into it? No I do not. Do I provide a reference system that a good engineer can use? Yes I do.

break for a second. Nothing worse that a witless child with a loud mouth. You picked the wrong tree to carve your initials "zero zero" into.

Nathan: and i can promise you

michael: And I can promise you you probably wouldn't know a PA if it bit you on the ass, at least the part that matters. -of the PA, not your ass.

: Regards,
: nathan hamler.

Nathan: and by the way, i guarantee that i well placed mic will in turn allow/cause the speakers to move MUCH more air than a not well placed mic...

michael: And I guarantee I will be getting six hours of sleep a night for the next ten days (5 hours on the time change day) and working with some of the best techs and production. (NY variety)(And I am learning much) Too bad I have to walk half a mile to get through the venue.

Well, Nathan, I invite to return to your "ADAT thinking." Otherwise, when you get ready to do PA you let me know. And see, I took five minutes out of my six hours of sleep tonight to reply to you.


Posted by yep on April 11, 2002

ya know... you're right... the guy that gets the FOH engineer his coffee doesn't get a lot of sleep...


Posted by michael on April 11, 2002

That's exactly whatI have been doing - delivering coffee and the like. Once the system is rigged and wired it sits like a rock. At least this engineer is really good at what he does.

But I got to tell you, corporate industrial production is a nasty nasty business. Watching executives getting picture perfect from a makeup crew and then going to the podium to do a "heartfelt" reading from scripted shit from a pile of teleprompters is a terribly depressing affair. Trite crap... oh god. These guys are robots.

How can you give a personal speech to your staff when reading telepromter script written by someone else? - and reading it as if you are saying something from your own thoughts and mind. Something is very very wrong with this scenario.


Posted by Andy Peters on April 03, 2002

Nathan,

I agree with you regarding microphone choice and placement, but you miss michael's point, which is that if the PA ain't got no oooomph nor drive, none of the punters will be feelin' that chest-thumping dump-inducing low-end asskick no matter what the mic, placement, drum or drummer are or ever will be.

Assuming that the system can do what you desire, then the discussion of where to put the mic becomes important.

I'm inclined to think that drum-tuning is more important than mic choice, and I agree with the gang here regarding detuning the batter head (and the resonant head, too). OK, so ya put your foot through the batter head -- the head was shot, anyways.

--a