Is there a audio physics minded person out there who could quantify this? Is there a specific frequency and SPL that gives dancers that wonderful slam in the chest feel? Is it a matter of having the right peak SPL on the kick, or sustaining a particular SPL for the required number of milliseconds? What other factors are part of this?

I ask this, because I've read all the posts about getting chest slammin' kick: horn loaded subs, 4 double 18s, Crown 5000 amps, this mic or that mic, compression or no compression, etc. No consensus. And in clubs, I've seen tiny little systems with a single 18 and a triggered sample thump, and I've seen 10 to 20k systems that wimped out.

Thanks,
Jay


Posted by Vinny on April 16, 2002

Here's a tip(s) to all you lovely techoweenies who love to fedangle w/ kik drums.

Compression- save it for something that could use it. Like female vocals. If you really feel the urge to utilize it, try 2:1(or so) high attack.

Gates- Good for taking the ring out of those pesky drums that hummm due to lack of muffling.

Unported heads- Max Weinberg wannabe's that think if they bury and muffle the kick drum it will provide more 'body' to the mix. Or whatever. Try a Beta52 (or any 'kick' oriented mic) in the front. Then take a 58 (AKG emotions acually work too) and place it to the right of the beater. This will give you that slap that you oh so need. Mix the two together appropriately and you have something you can acually live with.

These are a just a couple of things that help, but if you're not in a hurry, try this awesome technique for the ultimate kik sound for any style of music. My opinion at least.------- Take a beta 52 (or.... you know....) and place it inside the drum with the capsule pointed against the shell. With this you get POOOMMM sound. Gate it.

Now take a sm58 and place it about 5 inches away from the beater head. This will give you all that dry click, pop, and slap you could ever desire. Mix the low end first, mute it, mix the high end, then unmute and blend together. This is THE best kik sound I have ever had. Ever.

The kick drum is the foundation of your mix. Everyone has their 'own' special way of doing things like this, but I have seen guys that make my ears twinge because they ride the master all night long because they don't have that foundation we oh so need. Try to think of the kik drum as your ultimate SPL focal point, because it is.


Posted by Branson Sagear on April 11, 2002

audio physics... hmm...

The reason that a sampled kick drum will out perform a micd kick, is that it's made to... well... kick. If you take an old gretch 20" bass drum, and mic it up, put it in front of 30k of powerlight into a flashlight system... you won't get any kick...

I'm a big fan of making everything sound real. Not to change the sound of something with an eq, or compressors, but to just accuratly reproduce it... which is our job...

But... kick is an exception... The detuning thing that everyone is talking about ? It depends on the drum. I wouldn't completely detune it, but I would make sure that it's dampened enough. Get it so it thumps when it's not micd. Throw a pillow in it.

As far as mics... I'm a big fan of the audix D4. It's a small mic, which makes it a tighter, punchier mic. Just like 8 10" woofers are going to sound better than 4 18"(and probably play deeper, too...)

There are 4 frequencies that you have to worry about when it comes to the coloration of the eq. Throw a low-shelving boost around 100hz to 70 hz, at about 4-5 db. play around with it a bit... now... this is an important one... cut quite a bit at about 200-500 hz... very important to get the punch... 2k-3k is going to be the beater slap.. boost that a bit... and 14k-16k is going to be the shell crack... boost that a bit if you want.

I wouldn't compress a kick, because that would do the opposite of what you're trying to achieve. Compressing=adding sustain=not tight and punchy...

Compressors aren't cool... but noise gates are... on all drums...

Hope this helped you out...

Branson Sagear
FOH Engineer
BNC Audio
Green Bay, WI


Posted by Mikael Holm on April 11, 2002

- “I wouldn't compress a kick, because that would do the opposite of what you're trying to achieve. Compressing=adding sustain=not tight and punchy...” -

...that's why you have the attck-knob there. Longer attack will result "click" to go through uncompressed while the wadda bang boom is compressed. Also release time must be long because otherwise the compressor will release when signal is going down and THAT WILL GIVE YOU TOO LONG DECAY TIME. So compression must go until signal has stopped about completely.

Miffe


Posted by Branson Sagear on April 11, 2002

You're right... the release knob is very important... But why compress a percussive insturment ? all you're doing is decreasing the volume with a long release time.

I'm not saying using a compressor is a bad thing... In my mind, it's never a bad thing.. I'm just saying that it's not really needed. A good noise gate however (which a lot of compressors have... especially the drawmer stuff..) will help quite a bit.


Posted by Mikael Holm on April 11, 2002

- “But why compress a percussive insturment ? I'm just saying that it's not really needed.” -

Inconsistent drummers come to mind first. But i've heard it be helpful with lots of metal drummers (double kick/pedal assignments). And it really helps get the click to really come out in the mix.

Miffe


Posted by kevin on April 03, 2002

hi , i play guitar in a 4 piece rock band,and i think that the drum sound is the most important thing especially the b drum. we normally do our own sound from the stage but on bigger gigs we use a sound man who can make us sound awesome.he learned us to detune bass drum, just tight enough to take wrinkles out of skin.He then works some magic with grapics,what i noticed approx 2 middle sliders on both mono grapics pulled right down to bottom.unfortuatly his trademark is to zero all controls at end of night,keeping himself in employment i guess


Posted by Mikael Holm on April 03, 2002

- “his trademark is to zero all controls at end of night,keeping himself in employment i guess” -

I also do the same after i have used someone else's equipment. It's just nicer for the next guy to start with "clean console".

Miffe


Posted by Tony Basley on April 02, 2002

Here is one theory:

I once read an article that stated the chest cavity resonates at frequencies between 80 - 95 Hz. Boosting the kick at around this frequency causes that "chest pounding thud". Pull the mids and to get it out of the sinuses and add some 10-12KHz to define it. But you still have to move air to transmit the sound.


Posted by Anton on April 02, 2002

As stated earlier, detuning the bass drum is almost always neccesary. Mic placement is also interesting. I also noticed that beta52 almost always works. Generally, I don't like contoured responses, but when I go to concerts and think I recognize this mic, I've ALWAYS been right, it always sounds the same regardless of placement and drum kit.


Posted by Mikael Holm on April 04, 2002 12:27:54:

- “I go to concerts and think I recognize this mic” -

MD 421 - i just hear when it's in action. I have been able to recognize it from few recordings too. There is that weird *honk* in its sound.

Miffe


Posted by Darrin Plant on April 02, 2002


While its true that all environments vary and offer unique challenges to getting the kick sound you're looking for I have found one simple trick that I always start with. I talk the drummer into letting me de-tune his bass drum to a near paper sound - that's by far the hardest part.

I count the number of counter-clockwise turns on each screw so I can replace it after the performance. Up close it really sounds bad (although volume is seriously reduced so people even a few feet away don't hear it), but amplfied it has an incredible thumb with minimul "tone" allowing me to crank it and equalize it any way I want.

In every case the drummer who was hesitant before-hand has aproached me afterward and commented on the incredible sound I was able to acheive.

I learned this trick from an old studio engineer and have used it in many environments using many diffrent mikes. While the adjustments always differ slightly (ie placement, eq, etc). I've alawys been able to acheive the final result - thumping kick-drum.

Good luck,
Darrin

PS - Drums are one of my favorite things to mike. Even when volume isn't needed it's fun to shape the tone of the drums so I usually attempt to mike them.


Posted by Bruce Gering on April 02, 2002

So what you do is actualy loosen the tension of the drum head to achieve a lower acoustical tone. Do you ever find the drummer putting the mallet through the head? There's always that danger. How do you know when you've got the right tension and still avoid this? I've seen it happen on toms and snare.

Bruger